Stärke der Passphrase: Seed-Phrase

[root_s2yse8vt]

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Ich stelle diese Frage hier, weil Trezor in Sachen Passphrase sehr sachkundig zu sein scheint. Ich würde gerne wissen, ob die Entropie einer Passphrase zum Teil davon abhängt, ob sie „auf“ einer 12- oder 24-Wort-Seedphrase liegt? d.h. ist dieselbe Passphrase von sagen wir 7 Würfelwörtern bei einer 12-Wort-Seedphrase genauso sicher wie bei einer 24-Wort-Seedphrase? Wenn sie genauso sicher ist, dann wäre eine 12-Wörter-Phrase leichter zu merken, und wenn die meisten Gelder durch Passphrasen geschützt sind, dann wäre sie genauso sicher wie die 24-Wörter-Option.

[ElGuano]

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I think the passphrase is essentially like a hash applied on top of the seed phrase, or just alters the derivation path in a fully deterministic way, whether for 12 or 24 words. So the same

Please don’t go around trying to memorize your sp. What is the point of doing that, AND memorizing a strong passphrase? You’re just going to end up forgetting one or both.

[brianddk]

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> I’d like to know if a passphrase’s entropy is in part dependent on whether it is „on top of“ a 12 or 24 word seed phrase?

No, it is not dependent on the bits of entropy of the seed mnemonic. The bits of entropy of the passphrase is simply a function of how it is constructed. For example a 50 digit hex passphrase would have 200 bits of entropy, whereas a 12 word seed mnemonic has 128 bits of entropy and 24 word seed mnemonic has 256 bits of entropy.

> i.e. is the same passphrase of say 7 dice words as secure on a 12 word seed phrase as it would be on a 24 word?

True, assuming you can cram 7 diceware words into 50 bytes.

> If it is as secure, then a 12 wore sp would be easier to memorize, and if most of ones funds are passphrase protected then it would be just as secure as the 24 word option.

In practice… true. This due to the fact that, in calculus, `x * ∞ = y * ∞` for all real numbers `(x,y)`. That’s not formally true, but the gist of it is. In this context, 128 bits of entropy is effectively „infinite“ security. Having „double infinite“ security or „infinite squared security“ is just not that much more infinite.

[ta1no]

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Learn more here: https://blog.trezor.io/passphrase-the-ultimate-protection-for-your-accounts-3a311990925b

[Fitnessdoctor_7]

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From reading this post, my question is … for “older trezor users” that have 12 word seed phrases, should they somehow upgrade or change (if it’s even possible) to 24 words? Or is their 12-word seed phrase very amply secure (using an additional passphrase).

Oops- 2nd question. For funds already stored on a trezor, how is a passphrase added, (or more than one hidden wallet created) then funds moved from the wallet with no passphrase to the new passphrase protected wallets? (I’m sorry – I’m just a novice and newbie).

[Autor]

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