Ich bin kein Ledger-Befürworter, aber bevor Sie sofort eine andere Geldbörse kaufen, sollten Sie in Ihrem eigenen Interesse die folgenden Punkte beachten:
- Dieses Thema hat 43 Antworten sowie 1 Teilnehmer und wurde zuletzt vor vor 1 Jahr, 7 Monaten von
aktualisiert.
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1. Trezor ist Open Source, hat aber keinen sicheren Chip. Wenn jemand Ihren Trezor (physisch) in die Hände bekommt, sind Sie im Grunde genommen erledigt, solange diese Person weiß, was zu tun ist (richtige Werkzeuge und Fähigkeiten)
2. Von einem chinesischen Unternehmen wie Keystone zu kaufen ist nicht besser, es besteht ein 10-mal höheres Risiko, dass China den Hersteller zwingt, etwas auf Hardware-Ebene am Gerät zu tun, was China bereits bei vielen anderen Geräten tut, das Risiko ist einfach höher, selbst wenn es Open Source ist. Open Source ist kein Allheilmittel, es ist keine sofortige vertrauenswürdige Lösung.
3. Ledger Wallet ist noch nie gehackt worden. Ihr sicherer Chip wird von einem der etabliertesten Unternehmen in diesem Bereich (STMikroelecfronics) bereitgestellt.
4. Wenn Sie etwas anderes als Bitcoin / wie eth und andere shitcoins / Ledger halten wollen, ist immer noch eine der absolut besten Lösungen.
5. Wenn Sie nur BTC halten wollen, ist die einzige bessere Lösung Coldcard oder eventuell bitbox02 (btc Version), aber shiftcrypto sind viel kleineres Unternehmen mit einer kleinen Anzahl von Mitarbeitern, ich persönlich habe meine Vorbehalte, Ledger ist durch die Jahre etabliert.
6. Recherchieren Sie die Unternehmen sorgfältig, wie neu sie sind, wie groß sie sind, wie streng sie den Herstellungsprozess der Hardwareelemente kontrollieren usw.
Kaufen Sie auf eigene Gefahr, aber hier ständig zu posten und zu verkünden, dass Sie Trezor haben, lässt Sie nicht sehr klug aussehen, eher impulsiv und unreif, da Trezor einfach ein minderwertiges Produkt ist.
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> Trezor is simply an inferior product.
I suppose everyone has an opinion. Since you are (properly) addressing some of the Ledger FUD, let me address some of the Trezor FUD that Trezor is trivial to hack with physical access. First off, there seems to be the impression that the 2020 `wallet.fail` presentation went unpatched since Ledger claimed it’s unpatchable. This is patently false. After the original `wallet.fail` presentation Trezor firmware rolled three updates.
1. AES256 bit encryption on Trezor-T NAND (`sd-protect`)
2. Support for insanely long PINs on all products
3. Glitch exposure greatly reducedFirst, as Ledger states, this whole attack assumes there is no BIP39-passphrase enabled, or the passphrase is something stupid like „passphrase“. With that out of the way, onto the updates.
## NAND Copy
The `wallet.fail` attack requires the part receive a voltage glitch while it is in „flash mode“. This unlocks the protected memory to allow the NAND copy. On the older firmware this only required a few days to hit, but with the updates the amount of time the part was left in flash mode was reduced to the actual time the part was being programed instead of the original „fingerprint display“ where most of the attacks took place. The reduced window makes hitting the glitch incredibly difficult, simply as a statistical problem. Expect most attackers to spend months trying to glitch the part.
## NAND Encryption
Normally, the NAND is encrypted with the PIN, but for Trezor-T it can be encrypted with a 256bit salt file `sd-protect`. This makes PIN brute forcing impossible. No… no one is able to brute force 256bit AES encryption. This is just FUD.
## PIN Weakness
EVERY exploit I’ve seen is performed on a 4-digit PIN since that is the smallest allowed by firmware. And even those take 15 seconds. From a computation point of view that is slow as molasses. The reason it is so slow is two fold. First, the NAND uses ChaCha20 encryption which is designed to be slow to hinder brute force attacks. Second, the ChaCha20 encryption requires the full 1.5MB part to be decrypted before it can be tested. You should see that this is not going to scale well for the attacker.
If 10,000 cycles takes 15 seconds, 1,000,000,000 (9 digits) cycles will take over two weeks and 10 or 11 digits will require months or years.
## Conclusion
Simply get a $10 sd-card and your Trezor becomes immune to all these exploits. The idea of requiring „something you know“ (aka PIN) and „something you have“ (aka sd-card) to unlock a secret is a very old and common concept of data security. We all know it is two-factor authentication, but rarely stop to think about it.
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1. Very few people have the knowledge or skills necessary to get your seed off of a trezor and the people that do are probably going after people with a lot more crypto than me.
2. I believe some of ledgers own hardware components are manufactured in China and assembled in France so wouldn’t the hardware concerns apply to both?
If people have reviewed the open source software and haven’t found anything malicious, wouldn’t this mean it’s safe?
3. I agree that ledger has great hardware and their UX is amazing, extremely easy to use but the issue seems to be with their software and new direction they are taking.
Hope you dont take this as me trying to argue with you, I’m really curious what the correct answers to these questions are. I’m not a security expert or programmer
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> Trezor is open source but has no secure chip, if someone gets a hold of your Trezor(physically) you’re basically done, as long as this person knows what to do (proper tools and skill)
The bigger vulnerability for physical attacks is how a lot of people store their seeds they wrote down. Many write it down in order, so anyone who sees it can just use it. No need for hacking of any sort for physical theft of written seed phrases. It’s why a 25th passphrase is recommended regardless of what storage method is used whether it be different hardware wallet, paper wallet, etc.
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By the way, your #3 (ledger has never been hacked) turns out to be false. It HAS been hacked. Here’s a lengthy description by the guy who did it. He refused a bug bounty from ledger because he felt is was more important to notify the community than cash in. [Breaking the Ledger Security Model](https://saleemrashid.com/2018/03/20/breaking-ledger-security-model/)
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> Ledger wallet has never been hacked, ever. Their secure chip is provided by one of the most established companies in this sector (STMikroelecfronics)
Meaningless if you allow firmware to be updated and expose the keys to other components.
> If you want to hold anything else except Bitcoin/like eth and other shitcoins/ Ledger is still one of the absolute best solutions.
Yes. It is shitcoin support which was the trade-off made by Ledger.
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You don’t have to trust keystone:
1. It’s airgapped
2. You might roll dice for randomness and you have a way to independently audit the correctness of the derived seed, so it can’t mix anything into your seed.
3. You might check all the content of all inputs and outputs.Could you propose a plausible attack vector for keystone?
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> ledger wallet has never been hacked
This [guy claims otherwise](https://saleemrashid.com/2018/03/20/breaking-ledger-security-model/)
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There are alternatives with a secure chip & locked private key:
[https://tangem.com/en/](https://tangem.com/en/)
But yes, it comes with tradeoffs as they often do (you lose it, you lose your coins, same as cash)
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Inferior product? Jeez Ledger minions working so hard to spread FUD on the competitors these days. Not a good look. Oh and you completely avoided the fact that some of these wallets are airgapped wallets with the option to passphrase. When is Ledger airgapping their wallets? When will they go FULLY open sourced (since their plan is to only go partial)? When will they stop logging our IPs on Ledger Live? Trust me I was an enormous fan of Ledger but it’s time to move on buddy. Too many big mistakes.
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I highly doubt many people have the technical skill or tools on hand to break into a Trezor. That’s like a billionth of the population we are talking about.
Secondly, Trezor isn’t an inferior product because I know for certain that my keys aren’t leaving it.
With ledger, there is just as good of a chance of my keys being stored in Ledger’s DB right now as of them not being there.
I’d say that alone makes Trezor the superior product.
Buying any wallet that isn’t 100% open source is stupid
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Additionally: open source != safe
The main people outside the company who will even glance look at the repo:
Large majority are black hat hackers. And if they find a fault, it may take a while to exploit it
Small minority are white hat hackers. People finding issues and reporting them
Very few are customers who know what they’re looking at. And probably half of them actually know what to look for.
Point is, there isnt some green checkmark when a company goes open source saying, hey this system is a-ok. Just because the software is publicly available does not mean you can trust it. And i know most of you arent going to review it yourself. Something to keep in mind
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